SUMMARY KEYWORDS

science, faith, gender, biology, creation, world, genesis, gametes, psycology, brains, origins, identity, culture.

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SPEAKERS

Phil EuBank, Mark Clark

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(Phil EuBank) Well hey. Good Morning Menlo Church, so glad to be with you today. Whether you are joining us online or you’re or you’re at one of our Bay Area campuses in Saratoga, Mountain View, here in Menlo Park, or maybe up in San Mateo, we really do consider it a huge honor that you would choose to spend part of the weekend with us, especially around a really important conversation that we have been having over the last several weeks, and today we have the honor of a friend of mine bringing the message. His name is Mark Clark, and when we say we think that Jesus really does offer hope to everyone we mean even Canadians. And so if you would just extend kindness and love to him, that would go along way. But as you’re gonna see in a minute, Mark is fun, he’s funny, he’s compelling. His own personal story is amazing.

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He’s also one of the most thoughtful intellectually engaging people that I know and I’m really honored to have him join us. If you wouldn’t mind Menlo, give a warm welcome to Mark Clark.

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(Mark Clar) You rock. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All the campuses as well. Hello to you guys. Doing good this morning? Doing well? All right. Good, good. Man, you say all those nice things, and then I get up here, and then I'm like, who's he talking about? Any Canadians in the house? One? Where are you from? Vancouver. Hey, love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Americans.

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So I spent 18 years in Vancouver, actually. Planted a church up there in 2010. And it was crazy cool. I'll tell you about that in a sec. But yeah, good to be here. And Phil, man, he's doing a great—just, I am so excited about your future. He is a great leader, and your team is awesome. And it's just such a privilege to be with you. Such a great church. And talk about this heavy topic of gender today in the midst of this series. But as we get into that, let me share a little bit about who I am to frame this a little bit. So some of you might be here, and you're like, you're not really into Christianity. You're not really into Christianity. You're a skeptic. You're a little hesitant.

You're just here exploring Jesus and faith and all that. Awesome, e are glad that you're here. That was me growing up. So I came from a very skeptical home. My father was so against Christianity growing up. Like, I had no church. The first time I ever walked into a church, I was 19 years old, okay? And the only reason I stayed is because there were pretty girls there. I was not into church. I was like, I don't want to go to church. And then I showed up, and I saw, you know, my—there was a girl on stage who ended up being my wife. And I was like, oh, praise God, I'm into church. I love this.

So that was me kind of growing up. And my dad was against all of this. He was like, my mom wanted to name my brother Matthew, and my dad said absolutely not, because I heard that that's a Bible name. Like, that name is in the Bible. So he was against it, and then finally she convinced him. And then four years later, they had me and named me Mark. So clearly, this guy had never picked up a Bible before in his life. My middle name is Andrew. My—Brother's middle name is James. So he's got four disciples off the bat, and he didn't even know anything about it. He wasn't—he wasn't—he didn't know. So that was my life growing up as a skeptic and never wanted anything to do with Christianity. Became a Christian when I was 17. A guy came up to me at high school, told me about Jesus. I gave my life to Jesus, and some crazy stuff started to happen in my life. And so those of you who are here and you're skeptics, you know, I'm with you. We're glad that you're here. And then there's another kind of group of people that may be here, and you're religious, or maybe you're not, but you feel like God is done with you. Like, God could never speak to you, use you, reach you, love you because of the things you have done.

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You have completely disqualified yourself from God loving you, and that's how some of you feel when you're here. And I'm here to tell you, like, I'm the—I'm the poster boy, for God could never use me. God could never save me. God could never speak to me. God could never do anything with me.

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When I was eight years old, my parents got a divorce. And for those of you who've been through divorce, it's a traumatic experience. And when that happened, I actually developed Tourette's syndrome, an obsessive-compulsive disorder. So something triggered in my brain, kind of went off, and for the rest of my life, I had Tourette's. Now, if you know anything about Tourette's, it's like you do all these habits, right? So when I'm up here, you'll see me, like, twitch my face around in my body and make weird noises. That's because I have Tourette's. And so growing up, the habits that you get are like, if you've ever seen someone on YouTube or whatever, it's like, you swear all the time, right? You're like, so you—I grew up swearing. I just be like, F, like, F. Like, I just—not the letter, the word. You're nice, fine Christian people. So, but, like, so I'd be, like, sitting at a bus stop waiting to go to school, and I'd be like, F, right? I'd just, like, say it. It was like, so that's a way not to be cool in junior high. And so I swear all the time and here's—here's the one job you're never going to get in life when you randomly throw F- bombs around. A preacher, right? It's not going to work. Hey, welcome to Menlo Church. F! All right, get in a community group. It's not going to work.

And yet, and yet, it's my job every single week to stand on a stage and tell people about the Bible, and God decided not to heal me of this, which is, like, something I've just pleaded. I'm like, God, come on. It's going to be so much easier when these people are watching. Just take all this away. And God goes, no, I like it. All right? I like to watch it, you know. Because when a whole bunch of people get baptized at our church, and people give their life to Jesus, it makes God look big and me look small, which is part of the point of our life, is we're supposed to project our—and point ourself away from ourselves and decrease and make God look big, because every one of you needs to know in here, God will use you, save you, loves you, not because of you, but in spite of you. He will change you and do amazing things in your life, in spite of all your mistakes. Everything you've done, the failures, the foibles, the sins that not even the people beside you know about, all the reasons you come here and go, I don't know whether this God can ever love me. He goes, no, no, no. Today is a new day where I can take all of that and do something amazing. This is what he does. It's beautiful. It's wonderful.

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I got the opportunity to go to Folsom Prison. So we have a Folsom Prison campus as a church, and I didn't know anything about Folsom Prison until I moved down here from Vancouver and went in. And I mean, I knew it from Johnny Cash, but I didn't know like the actual. So when I got to Bayside, the church I work at, they're like, okay, well, every week you look to the camera, you say hello to Folsom Prison campus. So we literally have a campus, 300 guys gather every single Sunday in Folsom Prison, worship Jesus. Awesome. And so they're like, okay, we're going to do a conference there. We want you to come preach at Folsom Prison. And I'm like, can it be video? And they're like, no. We're going to go live. I'm like, oh no. So we go, cause I, I mean, I'm not going to do well in prison.

So I, I show up and all this, we're about to go in and this alarm goes off and they're like, okay, hold up. I'm like, what's happened? They're like, well, someone just got shanked and stabbed in the prison. I'm like, all right, well, we tried. Let's go. And they're like, no, no, no. That's a 10 minute delay. I'm like 10 minute delay. What are you talking about? And so we go in and it was everything you think of. Like I just guys in the, in the prison yard, like working out and they're like, what's up? And I'm like, hold my Bible. I'm like, what's up? All right. So like, and I get into the chapel, the great famous gray zone. And I'm sitting there and I walk in and this guy runs up to me and I'm like nervous. And he just stops and he looks at me. He's like, how are Aaron and the kids? And I'm like, you know, my family, when are you getting out, bro?

And so I'm sitting there and I'm saying, what, what do I preach? And I preached the prodigal son story to these guys and kind of went through the story of how this wayward son had done all this stuff. But the minute he decides to come back, the father runs out and hugs him and throws his own robe around him and throws him a party. And I looked out at all these guys and I said, how many of you had fathers who abandoned you? How many of you had fathers who cheated on your, your mom? How many of you had fathers who drank too much, who left you, who beat… How many of you? And every single one of the 300 hands went up in the room, every single one of them. And I was able to look at them and say, in Jesus, you get a father who will never drink too much, who will never abandon your family, who will never speak…. He wraps you in a robe of righteousness that's his own, the minute you come back to him and every single guy in the room is crying because that's the beauty of grace. Every single one of you, you know the word grace. You know the word grace. You know the word grace means undeserved favor. Not one of you in this room deserves the grace of God, right? It's undeserved. That's the point of it.

Even like all the big Bible characters that we read and we go, these people were perfect. I'll never be one of them. Listen, I'm going to go through a list of all the Bible, a bunch of Bible characters that we look up to and just see if you can identify with any of them. Okay. Okay. So Noah got drunk. Raise your hand if... Noah got drunk. Abraham was too old. You ever felt too old to do something? Jacob lied. Leah was ugly. Genesis says she was weak about the eyes.

Joseph was abused. Moses was a murderer. Gideon was afraid. Rahab was a prostitute. David was an adulterer. John the Baptist ate bugs. Peter denied Christ. The disciples fell asleep, while praying Martha worried about everything. The Samaritan woman was divorced. Zacchaeus was too small. Paul was a murderer. And Lazarus was dead.

So if you're here, you got one up on Lazarus, at least. And the point of all that is the grace, is that Menlo Church is not a country club for perfect people. It's a hospital for every single one of us. And I know because I belong to a country club. And if I get there, and my shirt's untucked, literally the other day, my shirt was untucked. I'm talking to my buddy on the first tee, and the head pro walks out behind me and tucks my shirt into my pants from behind me. I'm like, bro, relax. That's country club mentality, man. You got to have your whole life together before you come through the door. You better tuck your shirt in, you better look perfect. And Menlo's the kind of place that goes, no, no, no. No perfect allowed.

See, if you find the perfect church, you shouldn't go there because you will ruin it. Some of you are taking a minute. You're like, why would I ruin it? Oh, because we're all imperfect.

So in light of all of that, we then come to this topic that Phil asked me to speak about, which is on gender. And we understand the grace that's needed for all of these conversations in this series. No one is perfect. No one's going to have perfect ideas and opinions. But how do we think about this question? I'm just going to introduce you to the topic today for a few minutes. So there's this question of gender, and it starts, it starts with Matthew 19. Jesus is asked about marriage, and here's what his answer is in regard to marriage, and then I'll unpack a few thoughts. Jesus said, it says, “He answered,” I mean, Jesus answered their question. “Have you not read,” and he's quoting Genesis 2, “that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female.” And he said, “Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife,” and the two of them. And he said, therefore, a man “shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let man not separate.”

So Jesus starts out by quoting the Bible. That's principle number one, that everything about your thinking and your life needs to be built, not on your own ideas, not on your own opinions, not in the cultural moment, the teleprompter of the script that's going on in whatever cultural moment you happen to belong in, in what city, in what country, in what age and stage. It's that the Bible, is the thing that has the power to change and transform your life. The Bible alone, not all the things that we try, the quick fixes. And I discovered this when I was a 17-year-old kid and someone told me about Jesus; I encountered God just by reading the Bible. I'd go out for, you know, a St. Augustine said, the Bible is the face of God for us now. And I would go outside my high school and I would smoke my pack of cigarettes and I'd just read the Bible. And I met God there. And I would just do what it said. Someone wuld walk up and go, give me a cigarette. And I'd be reading the Sermon on the Mount. And Jesus would say, hey, you know, if someone asks you for their shirt, give them your jacket. I'd just be like, here, take the whole pack. Jesus wants you to have the whole pack of cigarettes. It's all yours. Because I would just do whatever it said. It's like the Bible says it. I'm going to do it. Guys, this book has the power to change and transform your life. And we're not smarter than it. It can transform you.

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We had a bunch of years ago, I wanted to go into the film industry and in the movie industry. And God said, 'I want you to be a pastor through this bunch of, you know, experiences that I don't have time for.' And I was like, 'I don't want to be a pastor.' Because here's the thing: If you're writing notes, people are the worst. And so, pastoring people, I didn't want to do that. Because you've got to love people. People, they're just going to like, I know church people. All right. They just complain about everything. Right. The music's too loud. 'I want you to start a singles ministry.' 'Shut up. Figure your own life out.' I don't want to.

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Anyway, so then I'm like, 'I don't want to do that job.' And God's like, 'No, no, that's exactly what I want you to do.' But not only do I want you to pastor, I want you to start a church from scratch. And I'm like, 'Why would I ever start a church? There are lots of churches.' He goes, 'No, no, no.

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I want you to start a church with these 16 people in your house to reach skeptics like you.' And I was like, 'Oh, this is going to not be great.' Because it's Vancouver. Like Vancouver in Canada, like Canada is at least a generation ahead of the United States in regard to secularization of all spheres of culture. Right. So when I'm speaking to Americans, I like to say, 'I come to you from the future. It's where everything's going. And I'm going to start this church in this city that already thinks it's saved because they wear Lululemon pants, and carry a water bottle, and eat kale. And so they're like, 'We're already connected to the universe.'

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And I'm going to, and so I started this church. And I'm going to start a church. And everyone's like, 'Well, how's it going to be successful? How's it going to be effective?' And they said, 'Well, you can't preach the Bible. That's going to bore everybody. Nobody in Vancouver, Canada wants to hear about the Bible. That's old. It's ancient. You got to get up and just say, "Hey, you have ideas, and I have ideas. We all have our different ideas. Thanks for being here. Sorry." Because it's Canadian. Everything's sorry.' So, and I'm like, 'No, I'm not going to.' So I just started a church. And I just started preaching through books of the Bible, like literally verse by verse by verse. And these 16 people became 35, became 50, became 200, became, and we got to like that 200 or 300 stage. And then we had to go to two services, the dreaded two services. And this woman walked up to me. She's like, 'We can't go to two services. I came to this church because of community.' And so I got to be able to go and say, 'Hey, Sarah, let's go for lunch together.' And everybody. So I got up the next week and I said, 'Listen, I didn't start a church so you could get more friends. I started a church because every single day, people like my dad die and go to hell. And so we're going to two services.' And the next week we went to two services. We grew by 50 people in a week. Well, she left. So 49 people in a week, just by going to two services. And I began to realize something was happening. And so I just kept preaching through books of the Bible, verse by verse by verse.

It took me three and a half years to preach through Matthew. That's not a good church planting plan. Right? It's like, what? But here's what I began to realize: This book has power. It's the word, but then it's the word behind the word, as Karl Barth said, there's something Jesus himself uses—the power of the scriptures—to change your life and to speak to you if you'll listen, if you'll hear. So, every decision we've got in our life is: am I going to come under the scriptures and let them be an authority on this topic, this issue, or whatever, or not? And so when Jesus is asked this question, he doesn't just start riffing off the top of his head. He doesn't read the cultural prompter. He doesn't jump right to the textbooks. He goes to the Bible and says, 'Let me answer this question by citing Genesis chapter 2.' And so, he cites this story where God is doing a wedding of Adam and Eve. And he says, 'Hey, from the beginning, he made them male and female.' And so this is going to be my authority.

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Now coming to this question, that's what he starts out with. From the beginning, he made them male and female, that there are only two genders, and God's design and the nature of things. And so this is why New Testament scholar N.T. Wright talks about this. He says, if you read the creation story, the way it unfolds is he says, the whole creation story from Genesis one is a binary story. God creates all these binary realities—light and dark, land and sea, heaven and earth. And he does all these things back and forth, back and forth, all the way to day one, day two, day three, day four, day five, day six. And he gets to day six and he creates a climactic binary, which is male and female. And he marries them. And he says, 'Now together, this is going to reflect out into the world, my image and my glory.' And that holds, N.T. Wright says, all the way to Revelation 21 and 22, when Jesus comes back as a groom and he marries the bride, which is the church. And there's a marriage supper of the lamb. And there's a wedding between the bride and the groom. And N.T. Wright says, this binary reality reflects, this is male, female made in the image of God out to reflect into the world.

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And so Preston Sprinkle says this, “According to Scripture, I do not believe that someone can ontologically be a gender different from their biological sex.” Of course, in our culture, we create a difference between sex, biological sex, and then a gender we say is a social expression, and people can change that. And so he says, 'I don't think that's necessarily true in that way. “They can think, feel, and live like they are a gender different from what their biology says they are.

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But this doesn't mean they are (ontologically) a gender different from their biological sex.” So he says, “The Bible does not view gender as something separate from one's biological sex. The two are interrelated.”

Now, some of you are like, 'Okay, great. That's what the Bible seems to say, but I'm not all that interested in what the Bible says. I'm more interested in what kind of science and modern psychology say.' So let's talk about that for a minute. Because there was a time when people used to look at Christians and say, 'The problem with y'all is that you don't do science and psychology well, and you should. You shouldn't just listen to the internal feelings of your subjective experience about how you feel about something. You should actually look at science because your internal feelings are so subjective that you can't trust them.' That's what people used to say about Christians. So Christians would say, 'Well, I prayed and, you know, my whole family's not Christian. So when I talk to them, they say, 'Well, you're a person of faith.' And I'm like, 'No, you're a person of faith.' And they're like, 'I'm not.' And then they look at me and they say, 'Don't give me, they say, how do you know it's true?' And I say, 'Well, I got all this data, but I also prayed and God spoke to me. Like, don't give us your subjective internal experience that has no data. That's not important.' And so we went through a generation of 200 years of enlightenment philosophy that told us, 'look at the science, the beginning of the universe, the origin of species. You got to look at the science, and look the psychology. And what’s happened now, is that’s flipped a little bit. Were now, what we're saying is your internal feeling about something is now the only thing that we should talk about. And the physical world doesn't have any authoritative hint at who you really are and your identity. And this is kind of what we're talking about as a culture now. Which is actually very same philosophy of ancient Gnosticism. It was the exact same thing. Physical world is bad. You can change it to adapt to this or this feeling.

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And so there was a whole generation saying Christians should actually focus on science. What science is doing is it's pointing to a couple things. So first one is this from the biology world, that we are gender at the cellular level, at the level of chromosomes, right? So in the womb, in utero, women have XX chromosomes and men, of course, have XY chromosomes. So that then goes on and they can produce certain physical attributes of the difference between male and female externally, but it's defined by what are called gametes, which are these reproductive cells. So when you talk to a doctor, a biologist, when they're talking, they're not using any political language. They're not trying to politicize or theologize anything. You just ask them how do, how does gender work at a science level? Like in the lab. And here's what they say. Neuroscientist says this, “Biological sex is either male or female…. sex is defined by gametes, which are mature reproductive cells. There are only two types, small ones called sperm that are produced by males and large ones called eggs produced by females. Biology, not society, dictates whether we are gender-typical or atypical. when sperm fertilizes an egg at about seven weeks, if the embryo is male, the testes will begin to secrete testosterone, masculinizing the brain. If the embryo is female, this process simply does not occur.”

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Richard Dawkins, who's the, of course, one of the great voices against all things theistic, everything against God. He wrote a book called The God Delusion. He thinks if you're in this room and you believe in God, you’re delusional. This is Richard Dawkins, “As a biologist, there are two sexes, and that is what there is to it. Sex really is binary. You either are male or female, and it's absolutely clear you can do it on gamete size. You can do it on chromosomes. So out of cellular level, technically these things are actually unchangeable. So medically at the level of our organs, the cardiologist Paula Johnson, who has a medical degree from Harvard University, she says this, “Every cell has a sex-and what that means is that men and women are different down to the molecular level. It means that we're different across all of our organs, from our brains to our hearts, to our lungs, to our joints.” And so what science starts to tell us is when we get sick and we need to go to the doctor, we get ill, they actually, before they cut you open, they need to know what's in there at a cellular level. However we might express different things at a cellular biological level, they need to know what the biology is. And so we know that from a scientific perspective, but then there's a psychology perspective to this as well.

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So you got the biology, but then you got the psychology behind it. And so we need to know and if you read different psychological…. so I have three daughters, okay? 17, 15, and 13, which means I have four mothers at home. So all they do is tell me what to do all the time. I can't win. So I got these daughters and when they were born, I figured out, I'm like, I don't know how to raise girls. So I bought a book by a woman named Dr. Luanne Brizendine, not a Christian, anyway, she's a psychologist, one of the top psychologists in her field. And she wrote a book called The Female Brain. And of course I have three daughters, so I'm like, I got to figure out the female brain. The book is this, no, I'm just kidding. So I'm like, all right, so I got to figure out the females. So I start to read this book and she points out all of these things from a psychological perspective. Again, there's no politics, there's no agenda, this is just psychology, okay?

So the female brain develops two years earlier than the male brain, which every woman in here goes, uh huhn right? So, the female brain is also more attuned to some things like doing things, reading faces, hearing emotional tones and voices, responding to unspoken cues in others. It's basically the female brain is a machine built for connection. And so you have like, here's what Brizendine talks about. You have the left and the right hemisphere of the brain, and they need to talk to each other, right? Because the left and right hemisphere of the brain do different things, right? And so one of them is more kind of metaphor and, more artistic, the other one's more of kind of a bean counting analytic brain. And so left and right brain, and the thing that connects the left and right hemisphere of the brain is called the corpus callosum. It's like a road, it's a highway that brings this into this. And here's what happens. Inside the womb, when you are in your mother's womb, one of two things happens. At a certain week, something floods your brain in order to enhance the corpus callosum, or women, it's called estrogen, okay? So, estrogen floods the brain of a female, and what happens is the corpus callosum is intensified, it's enhanced, it gets crystal clear, and it starts to communicate between the left and right hemisphere of the brain. And that's, so it's like a super, so from a psychological, the female brain is like a super highway of complex information, like 15 lanes, thousands of cars going in and out, moving around, communicating with each other. It's a brilliant thing.

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In the male brain, testosterone floods the brain, right? Not estrogen, but testosterone. And what testosterone does to the brain is kills it. It destroys the corpus callosum. And what happens is it intensifies aggression and sexual impulse. So those two things are enhanced through testosterone in the brain, which, and the male brain; picture it like an old country road, kind of a car going down it, bam, hitting holes. Women brain, information, which is why, when he's looking in the fridge, he really doesn't see it. He's like….and while you as a woman can just be like, idiot, all right, and just keep going. He's like, what the? That's, okay, so that's kind of the science, the biology, the psychology of it, is just that we're different right down to the cellular level and the psychology level. And of course, all of this reflects the image of God out into the world, these differences on these scales are what God is saying, I want to reflect my personality out into the world. And I do it by this, by this thing called male and female, and all the strengths and weaknesses of both reflecting out into the world.

And of course, there's all the, the stereotypical things about men and women that are, that are oftentimes true at a certain high percent. It is true. And Brizendine talks about this. If you put, she did many studies. She'll put a toddler girl in a room and then just watch her. And she'll put different toys in there. And she put a toy in there, and it was a big firetruck. And they all watched her, and the little girl went up to the firetruck, and within 10 minutes they were watching her. She picked the firetruck up, wrapped it in a blanket, and was rocking it to sleep. And the boy walked in the room and just started kicking stuff in the head. There's a doll.

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So there's these kind of pink-blue, like stereotypical things that are true about a lot of people, a percentage of the population. And it's done through a biological standpoint, a psychological standpoint that is true, and it's the nature of things. But here's what's important. Those archetypes aren't always true, and when we buy into them and begin to think, well, that's what's true about being a man, and that's what's true about being a female, and we can't find ourself in those massive categories, then we start to get confused, and we begin to look for other things and indicators that maybe we don't fit these there. And the Bible has this beautiful array of masculinity versus femininity, and it doesn't try to slot people into different things.

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David. So when is David more a man? When he's fighting Goliath, or when he's writing poetry? When is Deborah more a female? When she's at home, or when she's leading Israel in a war in the book of Judges? My wife is a war...If one of the two of us is going to lead, it's her. It's not me. She's like, cutthroat. I'll be like, hey, I think these four people need some more time at the office. I think we need to put them on a performance improvement program. She's like, or you could fire them. I was like, oh. That's what, she’s like that. But when is Jesus more a man?

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When he's flipping tables over, or when he's crying and weeping over Jerusalem?

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What happens is we create these categories, and then we can't fit into them. And it's partly because we, as a culture, are a little ethnocentric, especially if you live in America, you've been here a long time, you begin to define everything through your Western eyes, and you've got to get in an airplane and go to Turkey and see how 25-year-old guys walk down the street, holding hands, and they'll kiss each other. Or you go to Polynesian cultures, and men wear dresses, and all these things that we come up with in our brain and say, well, this is what a woman is, and this is what a man is. The Bible's like, wait, why are you thinking like a Western person living in 2024, thinking you know exactly what this is?

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I work at a church in Sacramento, and the staff, all the guys are kind of like, they're all alpha males. Right? So they're always talking about sports all the time. You watch the game, you see the game, the game, the game. I don't care about the game. I, when everyone's like, well, let's watch the game, I would much rather sit at home with my three daughters and cry watching The Notebook for the 14th time, to be honest. That's my, what am I, less masculine?

And so here's, this is the question. We begin to set these things up, and we begin to think, well, if you act like this, and the Bible has this great array, and so it's not, there are variations within what it means to be male and female, but there's not necessarily additions to what it looks like to be male and female. And so God has stitched us together.

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The book of Psalms says, in your mother's womb, he says, your body matters. It’s a temple. Romans chapter 12, verse 1, offer your bodies. The body is a massive indicator to your identity and who you are. And unlike ancient Gnosticism, it’s not to be set aside because God has this beautiful thing where he says, I love the physical world. He makes the world, and he calls it good in Genesis. When Jesus Christ comes and becomes a person, as Phil talked about the last couple weeks, and then he rises from the dead, you realize that that's the hope. Jesus gets re-embodied because God loves the physical world, right? It’s like I was preaching at Easter a few weeks ago about the beauty of the fact that Jesus doesn't just become a spirit and go up to heaven; his victory is becoming physical again. And that actually happened, like historically. It's not just like an idea. It’s not just a dream. The world is a different place because Jesus rose from the dead, right? He rose. He became physical.

I was reading this story the other day about this church, and they didn't want to have drums in church because they thought that was evil. And so they're like, we can't have no drums in church. You know, Lord forbid we feel something. So they had this membership meeting, and the guy gets up. He’s like, Jesus knew we had drums in church, he’d be rolling over in his grave. And it's like, dude, if Jesus Christ is rolling over in his grave, we got bigger problems than drums in church. We're still in our sins, man. He became a person. And then, what is the hope of the end? Heaven isn't some disembodied spirit world. We're all gonna disappear and play harps and have diapers and be on clouds. It's a re-embodiment of the physical, a new heaven, a new earth, a new creation, a resurrected body. That's where God is going with creation itself.

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Physical, again, but in a way of glory and sanctification we can't even dream of. All of that to say, we come to this humbly and we go, when Jesus Christ showed up, here’s what John chapter 1 said. He came full of two things, grace and what? Truth. So he's truthful, but he's also full of grace. That's the balance. We need 100% grace in these conversations. It's a beautiful thing about tolerance. As we talk about tolerance, is you don't have to necessarily agree with everything. We can talk about these things, but the church needs to be a place where those are fused together in a way that we say, okay, we're gonna do this, but we're gonna do it with grace. We're gonna do it in a way….

Here’s the beautiful thing about this text that I love. Jesus cites Genesis 2, “a man will leave his mother and his father and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” What I love about that is what Paul does with it in Ephesians. Ephesians chapter five. In Ephesians chapter five, Paul says, I wanna tell you a mystery about all this. This text from Genesis 2, it's actually about Christ and the church. And I remember reading that going, how is it? What do you mean it's about Christ and the church? I thought it was about Adam marrying Eve. And he goes, no, no, this is actually about Jesus. And then I began to go, when did Jesus leave his mother and father? And you realize that's the whole story of the incarnation. Jesus Christ leaves his father in heaven and comes down and gets united to his wife, the church, and the two become one flesh. Paul is rereading Genesis 2, in light of what he's seen in Jesus himself and going, oh my goodness, this whole story is a story about Jesus leaving heaven to hunt us down. And what I'm, I'm, he's still hunting.

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The old hymn writers called God the hound of heaven. And what I love about that is he doesn't just sit up in heaven and wait for you to figure it out so you can find him one day. He hunts you down through experiences in your life. He shows up here, he whispers this, he says this, this person comes in and if you're paying attention, you go, oh my goodness, God's trying to get my attention. Or you just go on with your life because you just want to move on with Monday.

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But sometimes when God speaks, you got to go like, okay, I’ll give you this illustration and then I'll pray for us. So, my wife and I were asked to do this marriage conference up in Whistler, British Columbia, right? Where we lived a bunch of years ago. So we get in the car, we're going to go up and teach on marriage for three days to all these married couples. So as we drive up, of course, I'm a pastor, and whenever you get to teach on marriage and tell everybody how good their marriage could be, what do you think happens to my marriage? Yeah, it starts to be not good. So as we're driving up there, Erin's like, okay, she's all excited, she's like, what are we going to talk about? And I said, well, you just let me talk and then you chime in every once in a while.

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Which sounded really good in my head, but was is not a smart thing to say to your wife who wants to feel a part of this thing. So I said, I don't, you know, I'll just talk and you just chime in. So she did to me what, it wasn't the first or last time, she gave me the silent treatment, right? I don't know if you've experienced this in this room. She stares out the window and just goes quiet and stops talking. And I'm driving and I'm like, I got two hours. This can't be a thing, I need to get this girl back. So I started asking her questions, you know, how's Joanne? You know, and she's just nothing. And I'm like, I'm in trouble.

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So I did something that I hadn't done, to tell you a true story, in like a decade. I turned on, I come from a generation, if you want to listen to a song, you put it up on Spotify, you choose the song you want, you choose your playlist, you choose, you choose whatever you want. But I turned on the radio, like the old-fashioned radio in the car, where like lasers come out of the sky into a pole at the front of the truck. And just whatever song happens to be on, just comes out.

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So I turn on the radio and no joke, the first song out of the radio is the song that her and I chose and danced to on our wedding night. No joke.

Now, if you don't believe in God, what are the statistical odds, that God, I mean, this was incredible. This was God reaching through the radio, right? Going, guys, I exist. Come on. Heal up. I love you guys. I need you to heal, come on guys, I'm here. Come on. And I'm like, baby, I'm sorry. And like, just from her passenger’s seat, I see her arm come over and go boo and shut the radio off. And every time I think of that day, I’m like, man, that is us every single day. God tries to get our attention through doing miracles. I mean, out of a billion songs written, how does that one? Come on. The mathematical odds, if you're a scientist or a mathematician…crazy.

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So God does stuff. And we got two options. You can be like me and warm your heart to it. Or you can be like my wife, who's not here, so I can use her as an example, and want to move on with your life and not listen when God starts to prompt you and hunt you down. But he will hunt you down. He will try to get your attention in a million ways. And he might be doing it right now, speaking to you. So let me pray for us.

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Lord, I pray that we'd have the kind of courage that would allow us to hear from you rather than to try to walk away from the things that you're doing. To lean into you, to lean into your grace, to lean into the fact that you still speak, and you still move, and you still chase us down, and you still hunt us down. And you put people in our life and circumstances in our life where you're constantly trying to get our attention. And I pray we'd be the kind of people who would give it to you and be in awe of you. The one who came, the one who lived a perfect life in our place, died on a cross for our sin, rose again from death to give us life. And that we would find our identity fully in that. In Jesus' great name we pray. Amen.

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